WEBVTT 00:00:07.382 --> 00:00:10.510 Yes, um-- 00:00:10.552 --> 00:00:13.471 - Make yourself comfortable. 00:00:13.513 --> 00:00:15.682 - Sure. 00:00:42.625 --> 00:00:44.210 Did you ever * kill anybody? 00:00:46.379 --> 00:00:49.215 How can I be seeing this and be recalling this, 00:00:49.257 --> 00:00:50.633 how it happened and everything, 00:00:50.675 --> 00:00:52.677 unless I'd actually taken part in it? 00:00:56.723 --> 00:01:00.310 I was, and still am, pretty upset. 00:01:06.816 --> 00:01:10.779 - Uh, terrified is not the word for it. 00:01:17.952 --> 00:01:20.914 - Ken and I were together off and on 00:01:20.955 --> 00:01:23.458 for about two years 00:01:23.500 --> 00:01:26.544 up until, like, 1978. 00:01:28.254 --> 00:01:29.547 This one night he said, 00:01:29.589 --> 00:01:30.757 "I want to take you out to dinner. 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:32.759 I want to take you to the Tiki Room." 00:01:32.801 --> 00:01:35.178 And he goes, "Come after I get off work." 00:01:35.220 --> 00:01:37.263 And I said, "Okay." 00:01:37.305 --> 00:01:39.015 So I showed up at Ken's apartment. 00:01:39.057 --> 00:01:41.976 I'm knocking and knocking and knocking and knocking. 00:01:42.018 --> 00:01:44.270 And the manager comes over and she goes, 00:01:44.312 --> 00:01:47.023 "Sweetie, he's gone." 00:01:47.065 --> 00:01:48.191 "What do you mean he's gone?" 00:01:48.233 --> 00:01:49.484 She goes, "He left. 00:01:49.526 --> 00:01:51.403 He took everything and left. He moved out." 00:01:52.904 --> 00:01:55.073 I walked in, and everything was gone. 00:01:55.115 --> 00:01:56.992 All his belongings were gone. 00:01:57.033 --> 00:01:58.827 There was nothing. 00:01:58.868 --> 00:02:00.787 I was devastated. 00:02:00.829 --> 00:02:05.625 And I just felt so betrayed and so hurt. 00:02:08.253 --> 00:02:12.757 Later on, I found out he had moved up to Washington 00:02:12.799 --> 00:02:15.969 to follow a girl that was pregnant. 00:02:16.011 --> 00:02:18.805 I knew nothing about this other girl at all. 00:02:20.515 --> 00:02:23.268 I wish that's all it was, was somebody else. 00:02:24.477 --> 00:02:27.981 What he was hiding 00:02:28.023 --> 00:02:32.861 is just beyond belief. 00:02:35.864 --> 00:02:42.787 * * 00:03:09.481 --> 00:03:11.107 - In Los Angeles, they're still looking 00:03:11.149 --> 00:03:13.985 for the Hillside Strangler a year and a half later. 00:03:14.027 --> 00:03:17.322 There have been as many as 9,000 names 00:03:17.364 --> 00:03:18.865 on the list of suspects. 00:03:18.907 --> 00:03:21.326 - Police now believe ten women have been killed 00:03:21.368 --> 00:03:23.995 by the same suspect or suspects. 00:03:24.037 --> 00:03:27.457 - The last one, Cindy Hudspeth, was found in, 00:03:27.499 --> 00:03:29.876 I think it was February of '78. 00:03:29.918 --> 00:03:31.670 And then there wasn't another thing attributed 00:03:31.711 --> 00:03:34.506 to the so-called Hillside Strangler. 00:03:37.926 --> 00:03:40.053 - When you're working a case like that, 00:03:40.095 --> 00:03:43.390 and you're not getting any new information, 00:03:43.431 --> 00:03:45.725 it's really pretty frustrating. 00:03:46.935 --> 00:03:49.145 We knew who we were looking for. 00:03:49.187 --> 00:03:51.398 We didn't know who he was, but we were looking 00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:55.360 for somebody with a badge or power of authority. 00:03:55.402 --> 00:03:59.781 Every one of those victims went along with the suspects. 00:03:59.823 --> 00:04:02.409 We also figured it had to be two guys. 00:04:02.450 --> 00:04:04.703 The bodies could not be placed the way they were 00:04:04.744 --> 00:04:06.413 unless they were carried there. 00:04:10.959 --> 00:04:14.587 - We were still checking all strangulation killings. 00:04:14.629 --> 00:04:16.673 You'd get teletypes come in every morning 00:04:16.715 --> 00:04:19.009 of cases throughout the country. 00:04:19.050 --> 00:04:21.928 You know, we were checking any and all 00:04:21.970 --> 00:04:26.057 of those type cases in different areas, 00:04:26.099 --> 00:04:30.770 and just never did come up with anything. 00:04:30.812 --> 00:04:32.105 You know, they wouldn't have lost interest 00:04:32.147 --> 00:04:34.399 because those people don't lose interest 00:04:34.441 --> 00:04:35.817 in their endeavors. 00:04:35.859 --> 00:04:37.986 So you figured they might've left the area 00:04:38.028 --> 00:04:42.115 or are in jail for something other than a murder 00:04:42.157 --> 00:04:45.452 or they're deceased. 00:04:47.996 --> 00:04:51.791 January of '79, I get a phone call and it's Frank, 00:04:51.833 --> 00:04:54.419 and he said the police department 00:04:54.461 --> 00:04:56.838 in Washington just called downtown, 00:04:56.880 --> 00:05:00.884 and they wanted us to do some background investigation 00:05:00.925 --> 00:05:03.386 on somebody they've got in custody 00:05:03.428 --> 00:05:05.972 on a couple of murders up there. 00:05:06.014 --> 00:05:09.392 And the guy's name is Kenneth Bianchi. 00:05:15.398 --> 00:05:17.609 - Bellingham is one of the more beautiful places 00:05:17.650 --> 00:05:19.944 I think that I have been. 00:05:19.986 --> 00:05:22.989 Just a wonderful place to live. 00:05:23.031 --> 00:05:26.034 It was certainly not a crime-ridden area 00:05:26.076 --> 00:05:27.994 and still is not. 00:05:28.036 --> 00:05:30.413 This was a place where people necessarily 00:05:30.455 --> 00:05:32.165 didn't lock their doors. 00:05:33.792 --> 00:05:36.670 Every morning, the Bellingham Police Department would 00:05:36.711 --> 00:05:39.422 bring all the reports over from the night before. 00:05:39.464 --> 00:05:43.426 January 12th, 1979, the detective sergeant 00:05:43.468 --> 00:05:47.055 from Bellingham indicated that they were very concerned 00:05:47.097 --> 00:05:49.474 about two girls who were missing. 00:05:49.516 --> 00:05:52.560 - These two girls were two college students. 00:05:52.602 --> 00:05:55.855 One of them, Karen Mandic, had a part-time job 00:05:55.897 --> 00:05:59.442 at Fred Meyers, the grocery store. 00:05:59.484 --> 00:06:01.820 And the other girl was Diane Wilder, 00:06:01.861 --> 00:06:04.280 who was the roommate of Karen. 00:06:04.322 --> 00:06:08.118 Karen Mandic's boyfriend was a campus police officer, 00:06:08.159 --> 00:06:11.830 and he had become alarmed because she was supposed 00:06:11.871 --> 00:06:16.126 to have returned from some sort of house-sitting job 00:06:16.167 --> 00:06:19.087 that she and Diane were supposed to do, 00:06:19.129 --> 00:06:21.631 and she had not. 00:06:23.299 --> 00:06:25.176 According to the boyfriend, 00:06:25.218 --> 00:06:28.638 each of the girls would get $100. 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:33.476 In 1979 for a college kid, $100 for two hours, 00:06:33.518 --> 00:06:35.437 that's something to get excited about. 00:06:37.856 --> 00:06:40.900 - Karen Mandic's boyfriend could not remember 00:06:40.942 --> 00:06:44.195 the name of the person that she had mentioned 00:06:44.237 --> 00:06:46.740 had given her this job. 00:06:46.781 --> 00:06:50.869 But he knew that he had worked for Whatcom Security, 00:06:50.910 --> 00:06:54.372 and he had worked at Fred Meyer Security initially. 00:06:54.414 --> 00:06:57.625 So the police called the owner of Whatcom Security, 00:06:57.667 --> 00:07:00.295 and he said, "Well, that's Ken Bianchi. 00:07:00.337 --> 00:07:02.297 I hired him from Fred Meyers." 00:07:02.339 --> 00:07:05.633 He said, "Look, I don't know of any case we have 00:07:05.675 --> 00:07:08.762 that would be providing security in the area." 00:07:08.803 --> 00:07:10.221 But he said, "Let me check." 00:07:10.263 --> 00:07:12.891 And so he called Ken Bianchi up and asked him, 00:07:12.932 --> 00:07:14.934 and Ken Bianchi said he had gone 00:07:14.976 --> 00:07:17.854 to a Whatcom County reserve meeting that night. 00:07:17.896 --> 00:07:20.190 He had applied to be a reserve deputy 00:07:20.231 --> 00:07:22.984 in the Whatcom County Sheriff's Office. 00:07:23.026 --> 00:07:27.781 And he said furthermore, he did not know the name Karen Mandic. 00:07:27.822 --> 00:07:31.951 The officers knew that he did know Karen Mandic. 00:07:31.993 --> 00:07:34.079 They checked on the Sheriff's reserve meeting. 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:35.997 They found that he had not gone to the meeting. 00:07:36.039 --> 00:07:38.416 And so they just had a real feeling 00:07:38.458 --> 00:07:41.044 that something was amiss with Mr. Bianchi. 00:07:41.086 --> 00:07:44.673 Later that same day, boyfriend searched the girls' apartment 00:07:44.714 --> 00:07:47.133 and found a note written in red handwriting, 00:07:47.175 --> 00:07:50.470 and it said, "Karen, Ken B. called" 00:07:50.512 --> 00:07:51.721 and listed his phone number. 00:07:51.763 --> 00:07:53.890 The number was Whatcom Security. 00:07:55.225 --> 00:07:57.811 - I went down to the Whatcom Security office. 00:07:57.852 --> 00:08:01.564 There I contacted Kenneth Bianchi 00:08:01.606 --> 00:08:04.776 and told him the reason for our visit. 00:08:06.027 --> 00:08:09.072 - It wasn't really a long conversation. 00:08:09.114 --> 00:08:10.532 They asked me what I did that night. 00:08:10.573 --> 00:08:16.204 They asked me if I knew Karen Mandic. 00:08:16.246 --> 00:08:19.666 And it didn't ring a bell at first. 00:08:19.708 --> 00:08:22.210 They went on and towards the tail end mentioned 00:08:22.252 --> 00:08:24.838 that Karen Mandic had a boyfriend 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:29.050 who was a campus police officer. 00:08:29.092 --> 00:08:31.136 And then the wheels started turning, 00:08:31.177 --> 00:08:35.849 and I recall I did know her from Fred Meyers. 00:08:35.890 --> 00:08:39.561 - I says, "When was the last time that you saw Karen?" 00:08:39.602 --> 00:08:42.355 He said, "I think it was in November 00:08:42.397 --> 00:08:44.858 when I left Fred Meyers 00:08:44.899 --> 00:08:48.194 to come to work for Whatcom Security. 00:08:48.236 --> 00:08:52.532 I says, "You've had no other contact between then and now?" 00:08:52.574 --> 00:08:55.869 He says, "No, no contact at all." 00:08:55.910 --> 00:08:57.662 I said, "Could you tell us 00:08:57.704 --> 00:09:00.415 about what you did last night?" 00:09:00.457 --> 00:09:04.044 This time, he said he didn't go to the reserve meeting. 00:09:04.085 --> 00:09:08.173 He said, "I was here at work until about 6:30, 00:09:08.214 --> 00:09:11.384 "then I went home and had some dinner, 00:09:11.426 --> 00:09:15.221 "then I came back down here to finish up the paperwork. 00:09:15.263 --> 00:09:17.891 "Then I went home, and I was there 00:09:17.932 --> 00:09:19.768 for the rest of the evening." 00:09:19.809 --> 00:09:23.813 That was a whole different sequence of events. 00:09:23.855 --> 00:09:27.650 So I spoke to the owner of Whatcom Security, 00:09:27.692 --> 00:09:30.070 and I says, "The girls had talked 00:09:30.111 --> 00:09:34.199 about house-sitting at 334 Bayside." 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:36.660 He says, "Wait a minute. I did have a call 00:09:36.701 --> 00:09:38.953 "from a fellow down there at 334. 00:09:38.995 --> 00:09:41.915 "He wanted a vacation house check. 00:09:41.956 --> 00:09:46.336 I gave that to Bianchi to follow up on." 00:09:46.378 --> 00:09:48.630 With that, we all kind of trooped down 00:09:48.672 --> 00:09:50.965 to the south side of town. 00:09:51.007 --> 00:09:53.802 - This house at 334 Bayside was in a very 00:09:53.843 --> 00:09:56.096 heavily forested, secluded spot. 00:09:56.137 --> 00:09:58.014 - You can't really hear your neighbors. 00:09:58.056 --> 00:10:00.100 You could have anything going on, 00:10:00.141 --> 00:10:02.519 and you wouldn't know it. 00:10:02.560 --> 00:10:05.105 We did a quick run-through of the house 00:10:05.146 --> 00:10:07.107 to see if anything looked amiss, 00:10:07.148 --> 00:10:10.110 signs of fighting or struggles or anything like that. 00:10:10.151 --> 00:10:13.279 There wasn't, and so we cleared the house. 00:10:13.321 --> 00:10:16.032 In the meantime, we put out a description 00:10:16.074 --> 00:10:20.120 of the girls' car on the local radio station. 00:10:20.161 --> 00:10:22.580 Very shortly thereafter, we had gotten a call 00:10:22.622 --> 00:10:24.916 from a citizen who had spotted the car. 00:10:24.958 --> 00:10:27.127 It was in a little cul-de-sac 00:10:27.168 --> 00:10:29.129 approximately a half a mile away 00:10:29.170 --> 00:10:32.924 from the house at 334 Bayside. 00:10:32.966 --> 00:10:35.427 This car is facing out. 00:10:35.468 --> 00:10:39.264 I come up the driver's side, nobody's there. 00:10:39.305 --> 00:10:42.142 Come around the back through the hatchback. 00:10:43.935 --> 00:10:46.980 We know immediately both of these girls are dead. 00:10:55.030 --> 00:10:57.782 - The bodies of Karen Mandic and Diane Wilder were found 00:10:57.824 --> 00:11:01.494 stuffed in the back seat of Ms. Mandic's car. 00:11:01.536 --> 00:11:03.121 - The two women were roommates, 00:11:03.163 --> 00:11:05.790 both attended Western Washington University. 00:11:05.832 --> 00:11:07.625 The first hint of their disappearance came 00:11:07.667 --> 00:11:10.462 late Thursday, when Karen Mandic failed to return 00:11:10.503 --> 00:11:13.506 to the local Fred Meyer from her dinner break. 00:11:16.551 --> 00:11:19.429 - Fred Meyer is where I met Karen Mandic. 00:11:19.471 --> 00:11:22.015 We worked the night shift. 00:11:22.057 --> 00:11:23.600 We'd get off at the same time, 00:11:23.641 --> 00:11:25.977 sometimes I'd give her a ride home. 00:11:26.019 --> 00:11:27.979 We hit it off pretty well. 00:11:28.021 --> 00:11:29.481 We truly cared for each other. 00:11:29.522 --> 00:11:31.066 I know I cared for her. 00:11:31.107 --> 00:11:35.487 There isn't a doubt in my mind that if Karen was alive today, 00:11:35.528 --> 00:11:38.198 we'd still be friends. 00:11:38.239 --> 00:11:40.408 We dated a few times, 00:11:40.450 --> 00:11:43.536 but we decided that we were better friends 00:11:43.578 --> 00:11:45.205 than boyfriend-girlfriend. 00:11:45.246 --> 00:11:46.498 We'd get a bottle of wine, 00:11:46.539 --> 00:11:48.541 and we'd sit up on a hill in Bellingham. 00:11:48.583 --> 00:11:51.378 We'd just pass the bottle of wine back and forth. 00:11:51.419 --> 00:11:53.672 And I trusted her with some secrets 00:11:53.713 --> 00:11:56.591 that I haven't trusted to anybody since, so. 00:11:56.633 --> 00:11:59.177 It was the kind of friendship that we knew 00:11:59.219 --> 00:12:02.013 that if we needed to talk, 00:12:02.055 --> 00:12:04.307 there was always an ear there. 00:12:04.349 --> 00:12:07.769 And it meant a lot to me. 00:12:08.478 --> 00:12:11.106 Her and I were working that Thursday night. 00:12:11.147 --> 00:12:13.775 She told me she was going to take a long dinner. 00:12:13.817 --> 00:12:15.985 The next day, I got a phone call 00:12:16.027 --> 00:12:20.240 telling me that they'd found Karen dead with her roommate. 00:12:21.825 --> 00:12:25.078 The way she died was just wrong. 00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:27.664 I don't know. 00:12:27.706 --> 00:12:31.710 It just--it was hard for me to take. 00:12:31.751 --> 00:12:34.963 I curled up on the couch and cried. 00:12:40.260 --> 00:12:41.761 I mean, my best friend was gone 00:12:41.803 --> 00:12:45.724 and I didn't have anybody to talk to about it. 00:12:45.765 --> 00:12:47.726 - It was at the end of this cul-de-sac 00:12:47.767 --> 00:12:49.894 near a housing development in south Bellingham 00:12:49.936 --> 00:12:52.022 where Karen Mandic's car was found. 00:12:53.064 --> 00:12:55.900 - I heard the call come in about the girls being found. 00:12:55.942 --> 00:12:57.777 When they said that there were, you know, 00:12:57.819 --> 00:13:00.488 two bodies in a car, I went over there expecting 00:13:00.530 --> 00:13:02.824 to work a homicide scene. 00:13:02.866 --> 00:13:04.951 It was dusk when I got there. 00:13:04.993 --> 00:13:07.746 There's a car sitting in the middle of this cul-de-sac. 00:13:07.787 --> 00:13:10.874 As you approach the car, you can see in the back 00:13:10.915 --> 00:13:14.169 these two bodies kind of jumbled together. 00:13:14.210 --> 00:13:16.463 There was no blood splatter which would indicate 00:13:16.504 --> 00:13:19.382 any violence that had taken place in that vehicle. 00:13:19.424 --> 00:13:21.217 It was obvious that this was not 00:13:21.259 --> 00:13:22.761 where the deaths had occurred. 00:13:22.802 --> 00:13:24.262 It had occurred at another location, 00:13:24.304 --> 00:13:26.139 and this was a dump site. 00:13:26.181 --> 00:13:28.933 - We could see deep furrows in their necks. 00:13:28.975 --> 00:13:31.561 It was very clear that a ligature had been placed 00:13:31.603 --> 00:13:34.939 behind them and they were choked to death. 00:13:35.982 --> 00:13:39.944 - The girls were redressed after whatever occurred. 00:13:39.986 --> 00:13:42.113 And there were what we believed to be semen stains. 00:13:42.155 --> 00:13:45.200 We didn't have the technical capability of knowing, 00:13:45.241 --> 00:13:49.454 but we assumed there was some sort of a *ual assault. 00:13:49.496 --> 00:13:51.873 Because we had two girls, 00:13:51.915 --> 00:13:55.210 we didn't discount the fact that there may have been 00:13:55.251 --> 00:13:57.212 more than one person involved, 00:13:57.253 --> 00:14:00.799 because, you know, it's tough to kill two people 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:02.509 at the same time. 00:14:02.550 --> 00:14:04.052 We didn't find any fingerprints. 00:14:04.094 --> 00:14:06.680 There was no weapon to be found. 00:14:06.721 --> 00:14:10.141 But we found a little Post-it note on pink paper 00:14:10.183 --> 00:14:14.646 written in red ink that said "Bayside at 7:00." 00:14:14.688 --> 00:14:16.898 - It was after we had already discovered a note 00:14:16.940 --> 00:14:19.651 that had listed Ken Bianchi's number on it at the apartment 00:14:19.693 --> 00:14:23.029 that Karen and Diane Wilder were staying in. 00:14:23.071 --> 00:14:27.409 So the connection between the girls and Ken Bianchi was 00:14:27.450 --> 00:14:30.161 irretrievably made at that point. 00:14:30.203 --> 00:14:32.956 - By that time, I had put it out on the radio 00:14:32.998 --> 00:14:36.876 I wanted immediate pickup on Kenneth Bianchi. 00:14:37.711 --> 00:14:39.504 - So I was on the road, and I was over 00:14:39.546 --> 00:14:41.840 in the south end of Bellingham. 00:14:41.881 --> 00:14:46.594 And my boss came on the horn and on the radio and said, 00:14:46.636 --> 00:14:49.305 "Go to a nearby phone and call me." 00:14:49.347 --> 00:14:50.807 I called him. 00:14:50.849 --> 00:14:52.684 And I said, "Okay, I'm here." 00:14:52.726 --> 00:14:54.102 He says, "Where are you?" I said, "South Terminal." 00:14:54.144 --> 00:14:55.603 He says, "Okay, hold on." 00:14:55.645 --> 00:14:58.898 And I could see a couple men sort of trying to be sneaky 00:14:58.940 --> 00:15:03.069 about walking down the walkway, but I got up from my seat, 00:15:03.111 --> 00:15:05.030 and I started to walk towards the door. 00:15:05.071 --> 00:15:07.699 And all of a sudden I'm looking down the barrel of this gun. 00:15:07.741 --> 00:15:10.660 - I started the case at 9:00 in the morning, 00:15:10.702 --> 00:15:13.288 and we've got the bad guy in custody 00:15:13.330 --> 00:15:16.166 by 5:00 in the evening. 00:15:16.207 --> 00:15:19.294 I sat down with Kenneth Bianchi. 00:15:19.336 --> 00:15:20.879 And he's totally calm. 00:15:20.920 --> 00:15:24.841 His story changed, different details, 00:15:24.883 --> 00:15:29.095 different places that he was, different places he wasn't. 00:15:29.137 --> 00:15:32.724 But at no time did he ever say that he had ever been 00:15:32.766 --> 00:15:37.062 in contact with Karen Mandic since November. 00:15:37.103 --> 00:15:39.689 And so there had been at least two months 00:15:39.731 --> 00:15:41.274 that he hadn't talked to her, 00:15:41.316 --> 00:15:43.985 hadn't seen her, hadn't anything. 00:15:44.027 --> 00:15:47.530 A very short time later, Kelli Boyd, 00:15:47.572 --> 00:15:49.908 Kenneth Bianchi's common-law wife 00:15:49.949 --> 00:15:52.077 with whom he had one child, 00:15:52.118 --> 00:15:53.495 shows up at the station. 00:15:53.536 --> 00:15:58.291 She had been told that her husband had been arrested, 00:15:58.333 --> 00:16:02.087 and so she had come down to find out what had happened. 00:16:02.128 --> 00:16:04.798 - She'd come up from California with their child. 00:16:04.839 --> 00:16:06.466 He had followed them back up here 00:16:06.508 --> 00:16:09.344 to Bellingham from Los Angeles. 00:16:09.386 --> 00:16:11.930 - This is, you know, the man she lives with, 00:16:11.971 --> 00:16:14.224 the man she's had a child with. 00:16:14.265 --> 00:16:17.227 And all of a sudden he's being accused of this. 00:16:17.268 --> 00:16:20.855 She was shocked. 00:16:20.897 --> 00:16:23.441 - The Ken I knew couldn't have ever hurt anybody 00:16:23.483 --> 00:16:24.943 or killed anybody. 00:16:24.984 --> 00:16:27.737 He's pretty thoughtful and real helpful with the baby. 00:16:27.779 --> 00:16:31.116 And even around the house, he was real helpful. 00:16:31.157 --> 00:16:34.911 He, um-- 00:16:34.953 --> 00:16:36.287 he just wasn't the kind of person 00:16:36.329 --> 00:16:39.124 that could've killed somebody. 00:16:39.165 --> 00:16:42.627 - I said, "When did you see your husband last night?" 00:16:42.669 --> 00:16:44.629 She related that he said he was going 00:16:44.671 --> 00:16:46.256 to a reserve meeting. 00:16:46.297 --> 00:16:49.634 So I asked her what time he had gotten back. 00:16:49.676 --> 00:16:51.469 - She said that when he came home that night, 00:16:51.511 --> 00:16:54.014 it was after 10:30, 00:16:54.055 --> 00:16:57.684 which would have been after the girls were killed. 00:16:59.936 --> 00:17:01.896 The officers in the meantime, 00:17:01.938 --> 00:17:03.690 got a consent to search his house. 00:17:03.732 --> 00:17:06.109 They found some stolen property 00:17:06.151 --> 00:17:08.611 that he had stolen from Fred Meyers 00:17:08.653 --> 00:17:11.323 when he was working security there. 00:17:11.364 --> 00:17:15.452 We found a slip of paper with Karen Mandic's name on it. 00:17:15.493 --> 00:17:18.413 So these things are starting to really, really add up. 00:17:18.455 --> 00:17:20.957 We believed he had committed both these murders 00:17:20.999 --> 00:17:23.251 at this point, but I did not want to charge him with that 00:17:23.293 --> 00:17:25.879 until we had further evidence. 00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:28.256 So I charged him with possession of stolen property, 00:17:28.298 --> 00:17:30.675 a felony. 00:17:32.093 --> 00:17:34.971 - Ken Bianchi worked security at Fred Meyer. 00:17:35.013 --> 00:17:36.931 They put me in sporting goods. 00:17:36.973 --> 00:17:39.934 And because I sold pistols and rifles, 00:17:39.976 --> 00:17:41.436 Ken had to come by at the end of the shift 00:17:41.478 --> 00:17:43.188 to make sure all the paperwork was right. 00:17:43.229 --> 00:17:46.900 And so we spent about 15, 20 minutes 00:17:46.941 --> 00:17:49.569 at the end of each shift with Ken. 00:17:49.611 --> 00:17:51.655 I wouldn't say that I was a friend of his, 00:17:51.696 --> 00:17:54.866 but we were cordial with each other. 00:17:54.908 --> 00:17:56.701 He was kind of a private person. 00:17:56.743 --> 00:17:58.870 He didn't divulge much. 00:17:58.912 --> 00:18:01.331 After they had found Karen dead, 00:18:01.373 --> 00:18:04.209 the next morning, I went down to the police station. 00:18:04.250 --> 00:18:06.294 They asked me about how well I knew Ken, 00:18:06.336 --> 00:18:09.464 and did I do anything social with Ken, 00:18:09.506 --> 00:18:10.840 and just things like that, 00:18:10.882 --> 00:18:14.886 if I saw anything that would lead me to believe 00:18:14.928 --> 00:18:18.139 that he was capable of killing somebody. 00:18:18.181 --> 00:18:21.643 I had no reason to believe or not to believe 00:18:21.685 --> 00:18:24.688 that Ken did it. 00:18:24.729 --> 00:18:28.191 - I believed that he had killed the girls. 00:18:28.233 --> 00:18:29.776 So I said, "Okay. 00:18:29.818 --> 00:18:32.988 It's time to get some background information." 00:18:33.029 --> 00:18:36.992 There was a briefcase that had been taken 00:18:37.033 --> 00:18:40.370 with Bianchi at the time of his arrest. 00:18:40.412 --> 00:18:43.289 So I opened the briefcase. 00:18:43.331 --> 00:18:46.626 There were all these different forms 00:18:46.668 --> 00:18:51.089 with addresses in Southern California. 00:18:51.131 --> 00:18:54.884 So I put a call in to the law enforcement 00:18:54.926 --> 00:18:57.095 in the Los Angeles area and said, 00:18:57.137 --> 00:18:59.973 "I'm looking for some background information 00:19:00.015 --> 00:19:03.018 about this fellow by the name of Kenneth Bianchi." 00:19:03.059 --> 00:19:05.228 A very short time later, 00:19:05.270 --> 00:19:08.940 I got a phone call back from Detective Frank Salerno 00:19:08.982 --> 00:19:12.360 of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office. 00:19:12.402 --> 00:19:15.030 And I started telling him about this case, 00:19:15.071 --> 00:19:18.325 Kenneth Bianchi, and he said, 00:19:18.366 --> 00:19:20.744 "Uh, we'll be on the plane tomorrow." 00:19:20.785 --> 00:19:25.165 I did not have any information beyond that, you know, 00:19:25.206 --> 00:19:31.129 other than the fact that Los Angeles is very interested 00:19:31.171 --> 00:19:33.673 in this fellow that I have at jail. 00:19:39.596 --> 00:19:42.140 - On Friday, January 12th, 00:19:42.182 --> 00:19:44.893 I was arrested. 00:19:44.934 --> 00:19:49.689 And my mind went through, like, 00:19:49.731 --> 00:19:55.945 just a constant between shock and confusion. 00:19:55.987 --> 00:20:00.116 And things were pretty horrifying 00:20:00.158 --> 00:20:03.161 to the point of where my lawyer and I just couldn't 00:20:03.203 --> 00:20:05.622 see eye to eye, because I knew what I had done, 00:20:05.664 --> 00:20:07.791 and I hadn't killed any girls. 00:20:07.832 --> 00:20:10.627 You know, and we had the runaround, 00:20:10.669 --> 00:20:13.088 and he suggested that there-- 00:20:13.129 --> 00:20:15.590 he sort of felt there might be another problem. 00:20:17.217 --> 00:20:21.721 All this ties in with-- what has happened in my life 00:20:21.763 --> 00:20:26.017 is that I have had blank spots, 00:20:26.059 --> 00:20:29.270 spots I can't account for. 00:20:29.312 --> 00:20:31.481 They've become so frequent over the years 00:20:31.523 --> 00:20:33.233 that I just never gave them a second thought. 00:20:33.274 --> 00:20:35.735 I just thought it was just me, you know, forgetful, 00:20:35.777 --> 00:20:38.697 because people are forgetful, nobody's perfect. 00:20:39.614 --> 00:20:41.324 - Los Angeles police officials say 00:20:41.366 --> 00:20:43.076 their investigators are here in Bellingham 00:20:43.118 --> 00:20:45.203 almost as a matter of routine. 00:20:45.245 --> 00:20:47.247 Their interest lies in the possibility 00:20:47.288 --> 00:20:49.416 that the man who is suspected of strangling two 00:20:49.457 --> 00:20:52.293 Western Washington University coeds may also be 00:20:52.335 --> 00:20:54.796 in some way linked to a series of stranglings 00:20:54.838 --> 00:20:56.214 in Southern California. 00:20:59.175 --> 00:21:01.344 - We got a call from Bellingham, Washington, 00:21:01.386 --> 00:21:04.180 aid, "We got a guy up here that's just killed two girls." 00:21:04.222 --> 00:21:06.099 We get the complete description 00:21:06.141 --> 00:21:08.518 of the Wilder-Mandic murders. 00:21:08.560 --> 00:21:10.186 Very different than our murders, 00:21:10.228 --> 00:21:13.732 except strangulation. 00:21:13.773 --> 00:21:16.276 And we have what again? 00:21:16.317 --> 00:21:19.320 Power of authority-- he's a security guard. 00:21:19.362 --> 00:21:21.448 His name is Kenneth Bianchi, 00:21:21.489 --> 00:21:24.326 and he has a California driver's license. 00:21:25.910 --> 00:21:28.288 We're very interested. 00:21:28.330 --> 00:21:29.789 - Lo and behold, he's got an address 00:21:29.831 --> 00:21:33.501 on his driver's license of 809 Garfield in Glendale. 00:21:33.543 --> 00:21:36.296 That's where Weckler lived, 00:21:36.338 --> 00:21:37.797 and it's almost across the street 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:41.676 from the apartment building where Cindy Hudspeth lived. 00:21:41.718 --> 00:21:44.471 Isn't that a coincidence? 00:21:44.512 --> 00:21:48.725 So I go out to Glendale, and I go to 809 Garfield. 00:21:48.767 --> 00:21:52.395 I talked to the manager there and told her 00:21:52.437 --> 00:21:55.273 I was there to ask her about Kenneth Bianchi. 00:21:55.315 --> 00:21:57.650 She said "Oh, yeah, you know, he used to be a tenant." 00:21:57.692 --> 00:21:59.986 I said, "Well, you know, he's been arrested 00:22:00.028 --> 00:22:03.573 up in the state of Washington for two murders." 00:22:03.615 --> 00:22:04.866 She was shocked. 00:22:04.908 --> 00:22:08.620 "Does that mean you think he might have been--" 00:22:08.662 --> 00:22:10.080 "Possibly, yeah." 00:22:10.121 --> 00:22:12.415 So I get the lease agreement, 00:22:12.457 --> 00:22:17.003 and on his references, he had Mrs. Kellison 00:22:17.045 --> 00:22:19.172 who lived in Eagle Rock. 00:22:19.214 --> 00:22:23.468 Her daughter had dated Bianchi for a while. 00:22:24.886 --> 00:22:29.432 So I go over to Eagle Rock 00:22:29.474 --> 00:22:31.559 and talk to Mrs. Kellison. 00:22:34.270 --> 00:22:37.482 - January of 1979, my mom and I had gone up 00:22:37.524 --> 00:22:40.318 to my cousin's house up on La Crescenta. 00:22:40.360 --> 00:22:43.530 And we came home. It was after dark. 00:22:43.571 --> 00:22:46.700 We came home, and I walk in the door, 00:22:46.741 --> 00:22:51.371 and my dad goes, "Detectives are here to see you." 00:22:51.413 --> 00:22:54.457 Why were detectives here to see me? 00:22:56.126 --> 00:22:57.877 They said Ken had been arrested 00:22:57.919 --> 00:23:00.672 for two killings up in Washington. 00:23:00.714 --> 00:23:04.342 I couldn't believe what I was hearing 00:23:04.384 --> 00:23:06.136 or that this was real. 00:23:06.177 --> 00:23:09.848 It was just a total shock to me. 00:23:09.889 --> 00:23:12.767 Mom goes, "We need to talk." 00:23:12.809 --> 00:23:15.311 And so we went in my room, and she told me, 00:23:15.353 --> 00:23:18.148 "I think Ken is the Hillside Strangler 00:23:18.189 --> 00:23:20.316 and I reported him." 00:23:21.568 --> 00:23:23.987 She never told me anything 00:23:24.029 --> 00:23:26.239 until the detectives came to my house. 00:23:26.281 --> 00:23:28.658 And I immediately started crying, 00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:30.744 and then, "How could you do this to me? 00:23:30.785 --> 00:23:33.204 I love him." 00:23:33.246 --> 00:23:35.040 I thought she was wrong. 00:23:35.081 --> 00:23:37.167 They had the wrong person. 00:23:37.208 --> 00:23:40.420 This whole time before the detectives came to the house, 00:23:40.462 --> 00:23:43.089 months-- months, months, months, 00:23:43.131 --> 00:23:46.843 my mom had been dealing with the Glendale Police Department, 00:23:46.885 --> 00:23:50.597 the LAPD, and the LA County Sheriff's, 00:23:50.638 --> 00:23:53.391 talking to them and trying to convince them 00:23:53.433 --> 00:23:56.311 that she really felt that he was the Hillside Strangler. 00:23:56.353 --> 00:24:00.065 My mom knew that Kristina Weckler had lived 00:24:00.106 --> 00:24:02.525 in the same courtyard where Ken lived on Garfield. 00:24:02.567 --> 00:24:05.487 And I guess that was one of the major red flags to her. 00:24:05.528 --> 00:24:08.281 And then because of the proximities 00:24:08.323 --> 00:24:11.201 to where the girls were killed 00:24:11.242 --> 00:24:14.496 and me taking him to Forest Lawn, 00:24:14.537 --> 00:24:18.583 it seemed like every place that Ken and I had gone, 00:24:18.625 --> 00:24:21.252 there would be a body turned up. 00:24:21.294 --> 00:24:24.172 My mom put two and two together. 00:24:24.214 --> 00:24:26.466 But she couldn't tell me anything 00:24:26.508 --> 00:24:30.512 because she was worried I would say something to him. 00:24:32.931 --> 00:24:35.475 I'm sure she was a nervous wreck every time I would say, 00:24:35.517 --> 00:24:37.519 "I'm going to Ken's." 00:24:37.560 --> 00:24:40.355 I'm sure she was afraid if I told him 00:24:40.397 --> 00:24:43.733 that my mom suspected him of being the Hillside Strangler, 00:24:43.775 --> 00:24:47.737 Ken would kill me. 00:24:47.779 --> 00:24:50.657 And so she kept it all into herself. 00:24:50.699 --> 00:24:54.411 She was doing this all while I was at work, 00:24:54.452 --> 00:24:55.912 calling the police department, 00:24:55.954 --> 00:24:58.748 speaking to the detectives, everything. 00:25:00.625 --> 00:25:02.293 She thought she was a detective. 00:25:02.335 --> 00:25:04.212 She thought she could solve the case. 00:25:05.547 --> 00:25:08.133 - When the murders started, 00:25:08.174 --> 00:25:11.594 Mrs. Kellison called the tip line a couple of times, 00:25:11.636 --> 00:25:15.890 saying Kenneth Bianchi could be somebody worth looking at. 00:25:16.891 --> 00:25:19.269 They sent somebody from the task force out there 00:25:19.310 --> 00:25:21.688 to talk to Bianchi and, you know, 00:25:21.730 --> 00:25:23.940 he handled himself very well talking to the cops, 00:25:23.982 --> 00:25:25.775 and the guy asked him if he was willing 00:25:25.817 --> 00:25:27.652 to take a polygraph test, and he said, 00:25:27.694 --> 00:25:29.863 "Oh, sure, yeah, just let me know when." 00:25:29.904 --> 00:25:32.282 - I guess they kind of laughed it off. 00:25:32.324 --> 00:25:36.286 Hey, you know, Mrs. Kellison's worried about her daughter. 00:25:36.328 --> 00:25:38.705 And Ken says, "Well, yeah. You know? 00:25:38.747 --> 00:25:40.915 "If I had a daughter, I'd be worried now too. 00:25:40.957 --> 00:25:43.626 I totally understand where she's coming from." 00:25:43.668 --> 00:25:46.004 And so then, Glendale PD came back and told my mom, 00:25:46.046 --> 00:25:48.131 "Mrs. Kellison, you have nothing to worry about. 00:25:48.173 --> 00:25:50.175 He checks out just fine." 00:25:50.216 --> 00:25:52.719 I'm sure, you know, they thought, ugh, another one. 00:25:52.761 --> 00:25:55.680 Another one's reporting a girl's boyfriend 00:25:55.722 --> 00:25:58.266 as being the Hillside Strangler. 00:25:58.308 --> 00:26:01.353 The police did not believe her, 00:26:01.394 --> 00:26:04.731 and they believed him instead. 00:26:04.773 --> 00:26:07.734 - His name is in the file like many other people's 00:26:07.776 --> 00:26:10.820 names are in the file, for whatever reason. 00:26:10.862 --> 00:26:13.531 Uh, I don't know what happened to that information. 00:26:13.573 --> 00:26:15.742 I'm sure it went into the pile 00:26:15.784 --> 00:26:19.579 of all other information that was gathered at the time. 00:26:19.621 --> 00:26:23.375 We got clobbered with over a thousand clues 00:26:23.416 --> 00:26:26.086 within the first two weeks. 00:26:26.127 --> 00:26:27.420 We were buried. 00:26:27.462 --> 00:26:29.422 And there was a lot of information 00:26:29.464 --> 00:26:31.591 that slipped through the cracks. 00:26:31.633 --> 00:26:33.093 - You can just imagine this. You've probably seen it 00:26:33.134 --> 00:26:36.721 on some old TV show where everybody was calling in clues, 00:26:36.763 --> 00:26:38.932 and people were scribbling them down 00:26:38.973 --> 00:26:42.143 on pieces of paper and handing them off to somebody else. 00:26:42.185 --> 00:26:44.604 And there were hundreds of clues. 00:26:44.646 --> 00:26:47.023 - It was just lists of names. 00:26:47.065 --> 00:26:48.108 You know, it had the date, 00:26:48.149 --> 00:26:50.193 the name, when it was called in, 00:26:50.235 --> 00:26:51.986 and then a little synopsis of what was done with it. 00:26:52.028 --> 00:26:54.030 And I remember going through that, 00:26:54.072 --> 00:26:58.410 and Kenneth Alessio Bianchi was in there 00:26:58.451 --> 00:27:01.830 three times, maybe four. 00:27:01.871 --> 00:27:03.623 - His name had been among hundreds 00:27:03.665 --> 00:27:06.626 of tips turned in earlier by citizens. 00:27:06.668 --> 00:27:08.670 Bianchi lived in the same apartment as one victim, 00:27:08.712 --> 00:27:11.089 across the street from another. 00:27:11.131 --> 00:27:13.800 - Kimberly Martin was killed in a vacant room 00:27:13.842 --> 00:27:16.511 in an apartment building on Tamarind in Hollywood. 00:27:16.553 --> 00:27:18.596 Reports are that Bianchi lived for a time 00:27:18.638 --> 00:27:20.473 in the same building. 00:27:20.515 --> 00:27:22.142 - At one point in time, he was living 00:27:22.183 --> 00:27:24.978 in one of the apartments in the Tamarind complex. 00:27:25.020 --> 00:27:29.065 Martin was called out from an out-call prostitution agency 00:27:29.107 --> 00:27:32.402 to respond to an apartment in that complex. 00:27:32.444 --> 00:27:34.529 LAPD went and did a door-to-door 00:27:34.571 --> 00:27:36.656 in the apartment complex. 00:27:36.698 --> 00:27:39.659 - They had cops upstairs going to every apartment 00:27:39.701 --> 00:27:42.162 and asking the guy for their identification. 00:27:42.203 --> 00:27:43.955 And Bianchi they spoke to. 00:27:43.997 --> 00:27:47.667 - He was talked to, but basically it was just, 00:27:47.709 --> 00:27:49.794 "Oh, yeah, I live here. I don't know anything. 00:27:49.836 --> 00:27:53.089 Saw nothing, know nothing." 00:27:53.131 --> 00:27:54.883 "Okay, enjoy your day." 00:27:54.924 --> 00:27:58.011 - His name then went in the file as somebody interviewed. 00:27:58.053 --> 00:28:00.472 Not as a suspect, but a potential witness. 00:28:00.513 --> 00:28:03.600 There are a lot of information the taskforce didn't gather 00:28:03.641 --> 00:28:05.935 that would have prevented a murder in this case. 00:28:05.977 --> 00:28:07.479 - If they would've stayed with it, 00:28:07.520 --> 00:28:10.398 they would've seen the address on his driver's license was 00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:12.400 the same address as the last victim, 00:28:12.442 --> 00:28:14.444 and so on, and so on. 00:28:14.486 --> 00:28:18.657 - Personally, I never saw these leads. 00:28:18.698 --> 00:28:23.620 But I'm certain that if I had gotten that tip, 00:28:23.662 --> 00:28:26.831 we would have done further investigation, 00:28:26.873 --> 00:28:29.542 possibly putting him under surveillance, 00:28:29.584 --> 00:28:30.710 that sort of thing. 00:28:30.752 --> 00:28:34.422 Things could have ended differently. 00:28:34.464 --> 00:28:36.633 We'd have made the case and filed it, 00:28:36.675 --> 00:28:40.762 and those girls up there wouldn't have died. 00:28:45.558 --> 00:28:48.144 We didn't know. 00:28:49.688 --> 00:28:51.856 - I said, "You know, this is ridiculous." 00:28:51.898 --> 00:28:53.733 And I got a little agitated. 00:28:53.775 --> 00:28:55.485 I said, "You know, this particular one, 00:28:55.527 --> 00:28:59.155 "that was prior to Cindy's murder. 00:28:59.197 --> 00:29:01.032 "She probably could be alive today 00:29:01.074 --> 00:29:03.576 if this had been done properly." 00:29:03.618 --> 00:29:06.204 - The police did not take my mom seriously. 00:29:06.246 --> 00:29:10.250 Had they taken her seriously, 00:29:10.291 --> 00:29:13.420 it would've saved lives. 00:29:13.461 --> 00:29:15.755 They should have believed her. 00:29:19.092 --> 00:29:20.927 - The killings stopped as mysteriously 00:29:20.969 --> 00:29:24.264 as they began in mid-February of 1978. 00:29:24.305 --> 00:29:27.559 That coincides with Bianchi's move to Washington State. 00:29:27.600 --> 00:29:28.810 There has been speculation 00:29:28.852 --> 00:29:30.770 that the killer might be a policeman. 00:29:30.812 --> 00:29:32.731 Bianchi worked as a security guard 00:29:32.772 --> 00:29:34.691 and was described as a man who always wanted 00:29:34.733 --> 00:29:36.818 to be a police officer. 00:29:36.860 --> 00:29:40.155 - Ken Bianchi gets arrested in Bellingham, Washington. 00:29:40.196 --> 00:29:43.992 No question, this is the guy who strangled these two girls. 00:29:44.993 --> 00:29:48.663 Light bulbs, I mean, the light bulbs are going off everywhere. 00:29:48.705 --> 00:29:50.457 This is our boy. 00:29:50.498 --> 00:29:53.001 It can't be a coincidence, can it? 00:29:53.043 --> 00:29:55.962 He was the Hillside Strangler. 00:29:56.004 --> 00:29:57.297 - Then there have been theories 00:29:57.339 --> 00:29:59.090 that the killer worked with an accomplice. 00:29:59.132 --> 00:30:01.176 - I'm positive there was two guys. 00:30:01.217 --> 00:30:04.763 Our investigation supported two guys. 00:30:06.139 --> 00:30:08.141 - There was never any doubt in my mind 00:30:08.183 --> 00:30:11.561 that it was, you know, at least two suspects. 00:30:11.603 --> 00:30:16.524 And I'm thinking, damn, you know, we've got him. 00:30:16.566 --> 00:30:20.028 I wonder where the other guy is. 00:30:27.619 --> 00:30:30.205 - When did you decide to come to California? 00:30:30.246 --> 00:30:31.665 - I got tired of the snow, 00:30:31.706 --> 00:30:34.709 and I just wasn't getting anywheres 00:30:34.751 --> 00:30:37.796 financially or job-wise or socially. 00:30:37.837 --> 00:30:41.675 And, you know, you look at California, 00:30:41.716 --> 00:30:43.218 it's the sunny sunshine state. 00:30:43.259 --> 00:30:44.678 You know, go to California, you know, 00:30:44.719 --> 00:30:47.681 the girls, good jobs, success. 00:30:47.722 --> 00:30:51.059 - Okay, now this--nine months ago, where were you living? 00:30:51.101 --> 00:30:53.603 - Here in Bellingham. 00:30:55.105 --> 00:30:57.649 - Law enforcement officials have put a tight clamp 00:30:57.691 --> 00:30:59.901 on any comment about the possible involvement 00:30:59.943 --> 00:31:01.820 of 27-year-old, Kenneth Bianchi, 00:31:01.861 --> 00:31:04.322 in the Hillside Strangler cases. 00:31:04.364 --> 00:31:07.909 Bianchi's being held in the state of Washington. 00:31:10.412 --> 00:31:12.288 - As they started doing further 00:31:12.330 --> 00:31:14.040 and further investigation in California, 00:31:14.082 --> 00:31:17.168 they started connecting all the dots with him. 00:31:17.210 --> 00:31:19.921 They did not discover any murders that occurred 00:31:19.963 --> 00:31:23.425 after Kenneth Bianchi left California 00:31:23.466 --> 00:31:25.176 and came to Bellingham. 00:31:25.218 --> 00:31:29.305 And yet, we had two murders in Bellingham that matched the MO. 00:31:29.347 --> 00:31:30.932 When we found that they believed 00:31:30.974 --> 00:31:32.225 that there were two people involved 00:31:32.267 --> 00:31:33.810 in the Hillside Stranglings in California, 00:31:33.852 --> 00:31:35.270 we certainly looked at our case, 00:31:35.311 --> 00:31:38.314 but there was no room for another person in our case. 00:31:38.356 --> 00:31:39.774 - We are still operating on the theory 00:31:39.816 --> 00:31:44.195 that this crime was committed by a lone perpetrator. 00:31:44.237 --> 00:31:45.447 - But I wasn't really focused 00:31:45.488 --> 00:31:47.949 on linking evidence with California. 00:31:47.991 --> 00:31:51.453 I was making my case on what we had here in Bellingham. 00:31:53.246 --> 00:31:57.417 We know that he had moved here in May of 1978 00:31:57.459 --> 00:31:58.960 with a common-law wife. 00:31:59.002 --> 00:32:01.713 And that was really about all I knew. 00:32:01.755 --> 00:32:04.049 We tried to find a lot about his background. 00:32:04.090 --> 00:32:06.968 We sent two detectives to Rochester, New York, 00:32:07.010 --> 00:32:09.012 where he had grown up, to see if there was something 00:32:09.054 --> 00:32:11.097 there that would give us a further indication 00:32:11.139 --> 00:32:12.557 of who this person was. 00:32:14.684 --> 00:32:19.230 - Ken didn't talk a lot about his childhood. 00:32:19.272 --> 00:32:23.443 I knew that his father wasn't in the picture. 00:32:23.485 --> 00:32:26.488 Um, I knew his mother and him did not 00:32:26.529 --> 00:32:28.114 have a good relationship. 00:32:28.156 --> 00:32:31.451 Ken goes, "I just don't want to talk about it." 00:32:31.493 --> 00:32:33.745 So I knew he didn't have a good relationship 00:32:33.787 --> 00:32:37.040 with her if he's not willing to talk about her, 00:32:37.082 --> 00:32:39.334 but I didn't know why. 00:32:39.376 --> 00:32:41.878 - Now, you were adopted? 00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:43.338 - Yes. 00:32:43.380 --> 00:32:45.548 Up until just very recently-- 00:32:45.590 --> 00:32:48.510 I'm 27 years old, I thought I was adopted 00:32:48.551 --> 00:32:51.096 when I was three months old-- 00:32:51.137 --> 00:32:53.682 three weeks old. 00:32:53.723 --> 00:32:55.684 But I wasn't, it was three months. 00:32:55.725 --> 00:32:57.769 It's a big difference in time there. 00:32:57.811 --> 00:32:59.896 Like I didn't know I'd lived with a foster mother 00:32:59.938 --> 00:33:05.402 before my actual adoption after my mother gave me up. 00:33:09.948 --> 00:33:13.118 - I learned he'd been adopted 00:33:13.159 --> 00:33:15.286 by the Bianchi family. 00:33:15.328 --> 00:33:17.622 Growing up, he had some emotional problems, 00:33:17.664 --> 00:33:20.000 bed-wetting, and some other problems. 00:33:20.041 --> 00:33:22.836 The mother had him seeing some counselors, 00:33:22.877 --> 00:33:24.713 but didn't seem to follow through. 00:33:24.754 --> 00:33:28.883 - He had a long history of psychological difficulties, 00:33:28.925 --> 00:33:30.885 and I think that was well-documented, 00:33:30.927 --> 00:33:34.723 but his mother was not willing 00:33:34.764 --> 00:33:37.892 to let him be analyzed or treated. 00:33:37.934 --> 00:33:40.895 Through his entire childhood, he would start acting out 00:33:40.937 --> 00:33:44.399 in school, and they would come to her and say, 00:33:44.441 --> 00:33:48.611 "You know, your child needs psychological assistance." 00:33:48.653 --> 00:33:50.363 And she would shift him to another school 00:33:50.405 --> 00:33:52.699 and to another school and to another school. 00:33:52.741 --> 00:33:54.826 And they eventually reached the conclusion 00:33:54.868 --> 00:33:58.997 that she needed psychological assistance as well. 00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:01.124 - He was described by police in his hometown 00:34:01.166 --> 00:34:04.919 of Rochester, New York as a hellraiser in high school. 00:34:04.961 --> 00:34:06.838 - He graduated from high school, 00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:08.798 entered college, never finished. 00:34:08.840 --> 00:34:11.968 Tried to get into law enforcement there, did not, 00:34:12.010 --> 00:34:15.680 and then moved to California to live with his cousin. 00:34:15.722 --> 00:34:18.683 - So you moved out, and you moved in with your-- 00:34:18.725 --> 00:34:21.978 - My cousin, Angelo. My mother arranged that, yeah. 00:34:22.020 --> 00:34:24.022 - I think if you looked at everybody's background, 00:34:24.064 --> 00:34:25.982 you could find some things that a psychiatrist would say, 00:34:26.024 --> 00:34:27.525 "My gosh, this is the root of it." 00:34:27.567 --> 00:34:31.279 But that's not gonna help me in solving my case. 00:34:31.321 --> 00:34:34.449 My role is to convict this individual 00:34:34.491 --> 00:34:36.576 and keep him out of society 00:34:36.618 --> 00:34:39.329 so that the rest of us are safe forever. 00:34:39.371 --> 00:34:42.916 Whether he's a bed-wetter, I really don't care. 00:34:45.710 --> 00:34:47.921 The defense is paid for by the state. 00:34:49.005 --> 00:34:52.217 Dean Brett was appointed into the case. 00:34:52.258 --> 00:34:55.136 He's a very good attorney in all regards. 00:34:55.178 --> 00:34:58.640 - Your Honor, what do you do with a three-year-old kid 00:34:58.682 --> 00:35:00.266 who's developing psychiatric symptoms, 00:35:00.308 --> 00:35:02.769 and his mother refuses to take him to a psychiatrist? 00:35:02.811 --> 00:35:04.729 - I knew that it would be a well-tried case. 00:35:04.771 --> 00:35:07.273 - We've prepared a number of documents. 00:35:07.315 --> 00:35:09.317 - As the investigation went on, we found a number 00:35:09.359 --> 00:35:11.152 of pieces of evidence that became critical 00:35:11.194 --> 00:35:14.322 in putting this whole puzzle piece together. 00:35:14.364 --> 00:35:18.368 On subsequent searches of the home at 334 Bayside 00:35:18.410 --> 00:35:21.037 where Karen indicated she was doing this job, 00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:23.498 in the staircase going down the stairs, 00:35:23.540 --> 00:35:27.043 we found head hair that belonged to Karen Mandic. 00:35:27.085 --> 00:35:29.337 We also found two pubic hairs 00:35:29.379 --> 00:35:32.424 that microscopically matched that of Kenneth Bianchi, 00:35:32.465 --> 00:35:35.844 and we found one of his other pubic hairs 00:35:35.885 --> 00:35:39.347 on Diane's outer clothing in the car. 00:35:39.389 --> 00:35:42.976 Now hair and fibers, it's not like saying it's DNA, 00:35:43.018 --> 00:35:44.769 it's not like a fingerprint. 00:35:44.811 --> 00:35:47.772 It's not absolutely positive, 00:35:47.814 --> 00:35:51.818 but it is a very strong link. 00:35:51.860 --> 00:35:54.320 We knew how he had lured these girls there, 00:35:54.362 --> 00:35:55.530 how he had overcome them. 00:35:55.572 --> 00:35:57.282 We didn't have to know all the details. 00:35:57.324 --> 00:35:59.659 All we had to know was that he did it. 00:35:59.701 --> 00:36:02.662 We had a great deal of evidence that would tie him up 00:36:02.704 --> 00:36:05.290 specifically to both of these murders. 00:36:07.959 --> 00:36:11.087 And at that point, we filed the charges. 00:36:11.129 --> 00:36:13.048 - The former security guard is being held 00:36:13.089 --> 00:36:14.883 in isolation in the Whatcom County Jail. 00:36:14.924 --> 00:36:17.218 Bianchi has been charged for the Bellingham murders 00:36:17.260 --> 00:36:19.387 of Western Washington University coeds, 00:36:19.429 --> 00:36:22.974 22-year-old Karen Mandic and 27-year-old Diane Wilder. 00:36:23.016 --> 00:36:24.351 - He had pled not guilty. 00:36:24.392 --> 00:36:26.519 Everyone pleads not guilty at first. 00:36:26.561 --> 00:36:29.064 And at that point we were still working with Los Angeles. 00:36:29.105 --> 00:36:31.858 We didn't know exactly what we needed to do with them, 00:36:31.900 --> 00:36:33.985 and we were just trying to figure that out. 00:36:34.027 --> 00:36:36.363 The death penalty is really the ultimate penalty, 00:36:36.404 --> 00:36:38.948 and it has to be a very strong case 00:36:38.990 --> 00:36:41.660 to get a jury to agree to do that. 00:36:42.994 --> 00:36:45.080 The experts could not determine 00:36:45.121 --> 00:36:47.415 whether * assault occurred or not. 00:36:47.457 --> 00:36:49.584 That does not mean that * assault didn't occur. 00:36:49.626 --> 00:36:51.878 We suspected it, but we had a kidnapping, 00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:54.964 we had a premeditated attempt to kill. 00:36:55.006 --> 00:36:57.008 - There's at least three days of planning. 00:36:57.050 --> 00:36:59.302 Tuesday, he's trying to get a hold of Karen, 00:36:59.344 --> 00:37:02.931 sets it up, and kills her on Thursday. 00:37:02.972 --> 00:37:04.891 It wasn't a spur of the moment, 00:37:04.933 --> 00:37:06.935 "Let's grab her up off the street 00:37:06.976 --> 00:37:10.021 or grab her as she comes out of work." 00:37:10.063 --> 00:37:14.067 And he focused in on Karen. 00:37:14.109 --> 00:37:17.612 Poor Diane, she gets drug into this in the middle of it, 00:37:17.654 --> 00:37:20.031 but the focus was on Karen. 00:37:20.073 --> 00:37:21.992 - When I started reading about Ken 00:37:22.033 --> 00:37:25.286 and his connection to the Hillside Strangler, 00:37:25.328 --> 00:37:29.416 then I started asking why he had to pick Karen. 00:37:29.457 --> 00:37:31.126 I think he preyed on her. 00:37:31.167 --> 00:37:34.629 You know, he saw that goodness in her 00:37:34.671 --> 00:37:36.131 and he used it. 00:37:36.172 --> 00:37:37.757 I don't believe in the death penalty, 00:37:37.799 --> 00:37:40.927 but my first inclination was, 00:37:40.969 --> 00:37:44.472 I wanted the * dead. 00:37:50.895 --> 00:37:55.316 - March 1979, I filed a notice to seek death. 00:37:55.358 --> 00:37:57.110 - Today we have filed a death penalty, 00:37:57.152 --> 00:37:59.571 a notice of intention to ask for the death penalty. 00:37:59.612 --> 00:38:01.197 - As soon as I did that, 00:38:01.239 --> 00:38:03.450 the defense came up with a plea. 00:38:03.491 --> 00:38:05.660 - Today's court appearance by Bianchi was brief, 00:38:05.702 --> 00:38:07.162 less than five minutes. 00:38:07.203 --> 00:38:09.497 Bianchi pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity 00:38:09.539 --> 00:38:11.666 to charges that he killed Diane Wilder 00:38:11.708 --> 00:38:14.169 and Karen Mandic last January 11. 00:38:14.210 --> 00:38:16.046 - When you enter a plea like this, you're saying, 00:38:16.087 --> 00:38:19.215 "If I did do this, I was insane at the time." 00:38:19.257 --> 00:38:22.844 And, "If my hands did this," Mr. Bianchi would be saying, 00:38:22.886 --> 00:38:24.471 "In my mind, it was somebody else." 00:38:24.512 --> 00:38:27.140 - If Bianchi is found to be legally insane, 00:38:27.182 --> 00:38:30.018 he'd most likely be committed to a state institution 00:38:30.060 --> 00:38:32.187 for treatment and rehabilitation. 00:38:32.228 --> 00:38:34.189 - With not guilty by reason of insanity, 00:38:34.230 --> 00:38:36.608 well, the penalty is going to be a mental institution. 00:38:36.649 --> 00:38:38.193 It's not the death penalty. 00:38:38.234 --> 00:38:40.153 - Dean Brett filed papers 00:38:40.195 --> 00:38:42.697 with the Whatcom County Superior Court which stated 00:38:42.739 --> 00:38:45.283 his client had already been examined by three doctors, 00:38:45.325 --> 00:38:47.744 including the one who examined Patty Hearst, 00:38:47.786 --> 00:38:50.455 and that those doctors concluded Bianchi suffers 00:38:50.497 --> 00:38:52.874 from a severe multiple personality. 00:38:52.916 --> 00:38:54.584 - Multiple personality used to be called 00:38:54.626 --> 00:38:59.297 a dissociative reaction, and it's classified under DSM. 00:38:59.339 --> 00:39:02.467 And at that time, "The Three Faces of Eve" 00:39:02.509 --> 00:39:05.053 had been published, a book about multiple personalities. 00:39:05.095 --> 00:39:07.222 And so I'd heard of some of these things, 00:39:07.263 --> 00:39:08.723 but it was something really quite novel. 00:39:08.765 --> 00:39:12.227 We discovered the defense had brought in Dr. Watkins 00:39:12.268 --> 00:39:13.895 from the University of Montana. 00:39:13.937 --> 00:39:16.147 Dr. Watkins was really a proponent 00:39:16.189 --> 00:39:17.899 of multiple personalities, just believed it, 00:39:17.941 --> 00:39:19.234 really believed it. 00:39:19.275 --> 00:39:22.237 He had interviewed Kenneth Bianchi. 00:39:22.278 --> 00:39:24.447 - He seemed to be an easy-going, nice, 00:39:24.489 --> 00:39:27.242 friendly young man like the boy next door. 00:39:32.455 --> 00:39:34.499 - Dr. Watkins talked to Bianchi, 00:39:34.541 --> 00:39:36.960 and he supposedly was under hypnosis. 00:39:40.296 --> 00:39:43.008 - And the answers that were following down the road 00:39:43.049 --> 00:39:45.802 leading to multiple personality. 00:40:27.552 --> 00:40:30.430 - At that point, it was very clear 00:40:30.472 --> 00:40:31.806 that we're gonna have to be prepared 00:40:31.848 --> 00:40:35.643 to meet an insanity defense by multiple personality. 00:40:36.686 --> 00:40:40.815 - Every time Ken did something screwy in jail, 00:40:40.857 --> 00:40:43.151 I was down to the police station. 00:40:43.193 --> 00:40:44.778 I'd get these phone calls, you know, 00:40:44.819 --> 00:40:47.238 "We need you to come down and talk to us." 00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:50.241 And I went down there, and they started to ask me, 00:40:50.283 --> 00:40:52.661 did I see anything in Ken that might indicate 00:40:52.702 --> 00:40:54.329 that he was more than one person, 00:40:54.371 --> 00:40:57.499 that he might have had different personalities 00:40:57.540 --> 00:40:59.542 and whatnot? 00:40:59.584 --> 00:41:02.170 From what I knew of Kenneth, he was quiet, 00:41:02.212 --> 00:41:03.880 he was a bit of an introvert, 00:41:03.922 --> 00:41:09.678 but he never come across as being crazy. 00:41:09.719 --> 00:41:12.180 But maybe because he was so guarded, 00:41:12.222 --> 00:41:15.058 he was good at masking his personalities. 00:41:15.100 --> 00:41:17.852 But I knew he wasn't crazy. 00:41:17.894 --> 00:41:20.271 He was just one sick individual. 00:41:27.946 --> 00:41:29.072 - Kenneth Bianchi is now 00:41:29.114 --> 00:41:30.824 undergoing court-ordered tests 00:41:30.865 --> 00:41:32.659 to determine if he is mentally competent 00:41:32.701 --> 00:41:34.703 to stand trial on charges he murdered 00:41:34.744 --> 00:41:36.746 two Bellingham coeds earlier this year. 00:41:36.788 --> 00:41:38.915 The results of those tests could have 00:41:38.957 --> 00:41:41.793 a significant impact on whether Bianchi is ever 00:41:41.835 --> 00:41:43.586 extradited, charged, and tried 00:41:43.628 --> 00:41:46.381 in Los Angeles, where he is also accused 00:41:46.423 --> 00:41:50.093 in ten so-called Hillside Stranglings. 00:41:51.761 --> 00:41:55.181 - Ken was in jail there at the county jail, 00:41:55.223 --> 00:41:59.436 and he was claiming a split personality situation. 00:41:59.477 --> 00:42:02.605 And so the defense had some psychologist, 00:42:02.647 --> 00:42:04.941 the prosecution had some psychologist, 00:42:04.983 --> 00:42:07.110 and the court had psychologists. 00:42:07.152 --> 00:42:08.528 And they were all going to be 00:42:08.570 --> 00:42:10.864 doing these interviews with him. 00:42:10.905 --> 00:42:12.198 - Okay, that should work. 00:42:12.240 --> 00:42:13.825 - And so I went up there, 00:42:13.867 --> 00:42:17.746 and I set up the video equipment in a small room. 00:42:17.787 --> 00:42:19.622 - Do we put a mic there? 00:42:19.664 --> 00:42:24.044 - And we were gonna videotape all of these conversations 00:42:24.085 --> 00:42:26.296 and everything that took place. 00:42:26.338 --> 00:42:28.715 - My name is Dr. Ralph B. Allison. 00:42:28.757 --> 00:42:31.301 I'm a psychiatrist from Davis, California, 00:42:31.343 --> 00:42:38.266 and I was asked by Judge Kurtz to examine Ken Bianchi, 00:42:38.308 --> 00:42:43.271 to advise the judge on this particular incident. 00:42:43.313 --> 00:42:48.610 - The judge, when the question came up 00:42:48.651 --> 00:42:51.780 that we have a multiple personality case here, 00:42:51.821 --> 00:42:56.159 he wanted the best experts he could get. 00:42:56.201 --> 00:42:57.619 So he called me on the phone 00:42:57.661 --> 00:43:00.455 when I was in the clinic in Santa Cruz. 00:43:00.497 --> 00:43:02.499 - Kenneth A. Bianchi. 00:43:02.540 --> 00:43:05.168 - The Judge said, "I want one question asked, 00:43:05.210 --> 00:43:06.503 "does he or does he not 00:43:06.544 --> 00:43:08.838 have multiple personalities, that's it." 00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:13.677 Ken Bianchi had already been hypnotized by Dr. Watkins 00:43:13.718 --> 00:43:17.931 and shown this evil entity called Steve 00:43:17.972 --> 00:43:19.766 who admitted to the killings. 00:43:40.495 --> 00:43:43.289 - So I knew that was there, 00:43:43.331 --> 00:43:45.959 and I had to deal with it. 00:43:46.001 --> 00:43:49.879 Is that thing that came out, Steve, a multiple personality? 00:43:49.921 --> 00:43:53.466 I approached him as a patient. 00:43:53.508 --> 00:43:56.386 I had two sessions, and they were a month apart, 00:43:56.428 --> 00:44:00.098 and each one lasted a day and a half. 00:44:00.140 --> 00:44:02.726 - I like you, Dr. Allison. I feel comfortable with you. 00:44:02.767 --> 00:44:07.814 - He was a pleasant young man who was totally puzzled 00:44:07.856 --> 00:44:12.027 by his being arrested for multiple murders. 00:44:12.068 --> 00:44:14.070 - Why can't I remember for sure? 00:44:14.112 --> 00:44:16.156 I want to know if this is so. 00:44:16.197 --> 00:44:17.866 - He had no memory of any of it. 00:44:17.907 --> 00:44:20.327 He didn't take responsibility for any of it. 00:44:20.368 --> 00:44:21.786 Let your unconscious work, 00:44:21.828 --> 00:44:24.080 because now I'm gonna count backwards. 00:44:24.122 --> 00:44:25.665 He was easy enough to hypnotize. 00:44:25.707 --> 00:44:28.335 I didn't have any problem with that. 00:44:40.221 --> 00:44:42.432 I tried to age regress him back, 00:44:42.474 --> 00:44:44.267 and what happened at age nine, 00:44:44.309 --> 00:44:47.771 he was hiding under his bed from his mother 00:44:47.812 --> 00:44:51.191 who was whipping him and yelling and screaming at him. 00:45:18.009 --> 00:45:20.804 While underneath his bed, 00:45:20.845 --> 00:45:24.224 this was the first creation of Steve. 00:45:27.894 --> 00:45:31.856 And I did meet Steve. 00:45:35.527 --> 00:45:37.737 - What, are you writing a * book? 00:45:37.779 --> 00:45:41.074 - And he was as crude and rude as you can get. 00:45:41.116 --> 00:45:43.076 He admitted to killing women... 00:45:43.118 --> 00:45:45.620 - I * killed those broads. 00:45:45.662 --> 00:45:48.707 - Just because they deserved it. 00:45:51.543 --> 00:45:54.754 - Because it makes the world a better place to live in. 00:45:58.675 --> 00:46:00.343 - * laws. Laws are nothing 00:46:00.385 --> 00:46:02.721 but * writing on paper. 00:46:02.762 --> 00:46:06.808 - At that point, all of us in this field were thinking, 00:46:06.850 --> 00:46:10.729 if it looks like an alter personality, it is. 00:46:10.770 --> 00:46:15.025 So I have to assume he was telling the truth. 00:46:15.066 --> 00:46:17.193 I went over to the judge, and I said, 00:46:17.235 --> 00:46:21.156 "Well, Ken Bianchi had multiple personality, 00:46:21.197 --> 00:46:23.450 and he was incompetent to stand trial." 00:46:25.076 --> 00:46:27.537 - You. 00:46:27.579 --> 00:46:29.247 You're the * whose been trying 00:46:29.289 --> 00:46:32.375 to get me to leave him. 00:46:45.388 --> 00:46:47.390 * * 00:46:47.432 --> 00:46:49.434 - Ken seemed like Mr. Right 00:46:49.476 --> 00:46:52.562 for a short time in the beginning. 00:46:52.604 --> 00:46:55.607 I eventually realized that there was nothing 00:46:55.648 --> 00:46:57.692 real about Kenneth Bianchi. 00:46:59.319 --> 00:47:04.157 The charisma, the niceness that he showed me, 00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:06.451 I don't think that was him. 00:47:06.493 --> 00:47:11.039 I think I saw the fake Ken Bianchi. 00:47:11.081 --> 00:47:13.708 Ken knew how to charm anybody. 00:47:13.750 --> 00:47:15.710 He could be a snake charmer. 00:47:17.087 --> 00:47:20.465 But if he had multiple personalities, 00:47:20.507 --> 00:47:23.635 why didn't I ever see one of them? 00:47:25.553 --> 00:47:27.806 - Ken thinks he's so * good. 00:47:27.847 --> 00:47:30.975 You know, at one time I used to like that *. 00:47:31.017 --> 00:47:32.727 - The psychiatrists that were appointed, 00:47:32.769 --> 00:47:34.646 a number of them felt he was insane 00:47:34.688 --> 00:47:37.816 because of multiple personality. 00:47:37.857 --> 00:47:39.567 - Dr. Watkins, who was the one 00:47:39.609 --> 00:47:42.445 who came up with this idea first, 00:47:42.487 --> 00:47:43.947 Dr. Allison, 00:47:43.989 --> 00:47:46.533 one of the experts the court chose, was a-- 00:47:46.574 --> 00:47:48.493 also a proponent of multiple personalities. 00:47:51.913 --> 00:47:52.914 - Nope, just him. 00:47:55.792 --> 00:47:57.544 - Just that *' *. 00:47:57.585 --> 00:47:59.004 He's such a goody-goody two-shoes. 00:47:59.045 --> 00:48:02.882 * him and his *' way of life. 00:48:04.759 --> 00:48:06.344 - I thought multiple personality was 00:48:06.386 --> 00:48:07.971 an unusual defense. 00:48:08.013 --> 00:48:09.514 And I thought that we certainly needed 00:48:09.556 --> 00:48:11.016 our own experts. 00:48:11.057 --> 00:48:13.184 And so I used two psychiatrists. 00:48:13.226 --> 00:48:16.980 One of them was Dr. Martin Orne from Philadelphia. 00:48:17.022 --> 00:48:18.940 He was an expert-- a world-renowned expert 00:48:18.982 --> 00:48:21.026 on hypnosis, also did a lot of work 00:48:21.067 --> 00:48:22.861 on multiple personality. 00:48:22.902 --> 00:48:25.071 - We've done a lot of work in finding things 00:48:25.113 --> 00:48:26.656 which separate people who are faking 00:48:26.698 --> 00:48:27.824 from those who are not. 00:48:27.866 --> 00:48:31.244 - Dr. Orne waited until the other 00:48:31.286 --> 00:48:32.537 people did their examinations. 00:48:32.579 --> 00:48:34.456 He did that on purpose. 00:48:35.623 --> 00:48:41.629 - How do you know that there is any Steve? 00:48:41.671 --> 00:48:48.678 How do I know that you didn't kind of cook this? 00:48:52.640 --> 00:48:55.101 - I have no idea. 00:48:55.143 --> 00:48:57.604 I really don't know what to tell you. 00:48:57.645 --> 00:48:59.064 - And he told me, he said, 00:48:59.105 --> 00:49:01.775 "I think that Mr. Bianchi is faking it. 00:49:01.816 --> 00:49:03.651 I don't think he's under hypnosis." 00:49:03.693 --> 00:49:05.570 And he said, "I have a test to show 00:49:05.612 --> 00:49:07.864 whether someone is under hypnosis." 00:49:07.906 --> 00:49:10.200 - I'd like to try something with you. 00:49:10.241 --> 00:49:13.203 It's a little different from what you've tried before. 00:49:13.244 --> 00:49:17.999 Find yourself sinking deeper and deeper, 00:49:18.041 --> 00:49:20.335 letting go. 00:49:20.377 --> 00:49:22.504 As you open your eyes, 00:49:22.545 --> 00:49:24.881 there's a chair in front of you 00:49:24.923 --> 00:49:27.050 where Mr. Brett will be sitting. 00:49:27.092 --> 00:49:31.096 And you will be able to see him clearly in front of you. 00:49:31.137 --> 00:49:34.015 Open your eyes and look at Mr. Brett. 00:49:34.057 --> 00:49:34.974 He wants to talk to you. 00:49:35.016 --> 00:49:37.894 - Hey, Dean. How you doing? 00:49:37.936 --> 00:49:40.814 - First of all, his spontaneously getting up 00:49:40.855 --> 00:49:43.400 and shaking the hand is something 00:49:43.441 --> 00:49:46.319 which you never see with deeply-hypnotized subjects. 00:49:46.361 --> 00:49:49.072 I've never seen any subject do this spontaneously. 00:49:49.114 --> 00:49:52.951 Even more striking though is what he does 00:49:52.993 --> 00:49:55.495 when I ask him to describe Dean Brett. 00:49:55.537 --> 00:49:57.872 Is he shaven? - Oh, no. 00:49:57.914 --> 00:50:01.501 His beard. God, you can see him. 00:50:01.543 --> 00:50:03.044 You must be able to see him. 00:50:03.086 --> 00:50:04.337 - He says, "You see him. 00:50:04.379 --> 00:50:06.047 "You must see him. He's there. 00:50:06.089 --> 00:50:07.507 You must see him." 00:50:07.549 --> 00:50:10.635 Now, that's an overplaying. 00:50:10.677 --> 00:50:12.053 Shakespeare would say, 00:50:12.095 --> 00:50:14.305 "Me thinks he doth protest too much." 00:50:14.347 --> 00:50:15.849 - Sure, I'd be glad to. 00:50:15.890 --> 00:50:18.268 - Dr. Orne, he went through the first interview 00:50:18.309 --> 00:50:19.811 and they came out, and he said, 00:50:19.853 --> 00:50:21.563 "Well, he flunked the test." 00:50:21.604 --> 00:50:24.149 He said, "He's not under hypnosis." 00:50:24.190 --> 00:50:26.651 He also said, "You know, it's so unusual 00:50:26.693 --> 00:50:28.862 for a multiple personality to only have one personality." 00:50:28.903 --> 00:50:30.822 So he's gonna come back the next day. 00:50:30.864 --> 00:50:32.407 And he told me, he said, "Now tomorrow," 00:50:32.449 --> 00:50:35.160 he says, "I will develop as many personalities as you want. 00:50:35.201 --> 00:50:36.202 How many do you want?" 00:50:36.244 --> 00:50:38.955 - If he was malingering or faking, 00:50:38.997 --> 00:50:40.874 then he'd grab on to that hint. 00:50:40.915 --> 00:50:42.709 And when later hypnotized, 00:50:42.751 --> 00:50:45.420 he was going to bring out one, two, 00:50:45.462 --> 00:50:47.005 or three extra personalities. 00:50:47.047 --> 00:50:50.800 And tell me, are you ready to talk to me now? 00:50:50.842 --> 00:50:53.553 - Yes. - What is your name? 00:50:53.595 --> 00:50:56.306 - Billy. - All right, Billy. 00:50:56.348 --> 00:51:00.226 Tell me, what you know about Ken? 00:51:00.268 --> 00:51:01.811 - I don't know Ken. 00:51:01.853 --> 00:51:04.898 - Next day, Bianchi produced another one he called Billy 00:51:04.939 --> 00:51:08.693 and Dr. Orne showed that he was lying about it. 00:51:08.735 --> 00:51:11.529 - I also selected Dr. Saul Faerstein 00:51:11.571 --> 00:51:13.698 from Los Angeles, a terrific psychiatrist. 00:51:13.740 --> 00:51:16.576 - I don't think he's a multiple personality. 00:51:16.618 --> 00:51:19.371 He's a very charming individual 00:51:19.412 --> 00:51:20.747 who sells himself. 00:51:20.789 --> 00:51:22.624 He's a real salesman. 00:51:22.666 --> 00:51:24.501 - Dean Brett. 00:51:24.542 --> 00:51:27.253 But if Dean Brett is here, and Dean Brett is here, 00:51:27.295 --> 00:51:28.755 how can he be in two places? 00:51:28.797 --> 00:51:30.548 - In this case, I believe he was a salesman 00:51:30.590 --> 00:51:32.384 for the multiple personality. 00:51:32.425 --> 00:51:34.386 - Dean? Dean? 00:51:34.427 --> 00:51:38.473 - He thought he was fabricating hypnosis 00:51:38.515 --> 00:51:42.394 and fabricating the multiple personality defense. 00:51:42.435 --> 00:51:43.812 - Well, great. 00:51:48.108 --> 00:51:50.026 - After all the reports came in, 00:51:50.068 --> 00:51:53.154 we had Orne and Faerstein saying 00:51:53.196 --> 00:51:58.201 he was not mentally ill, he was not insane. 00:51:58.243 --> 00:51:59.619 Saying, "He's a liar. 00:51:59.661 --> 00:52:01.079 "He's just a killer. 00:52:01.121 --> 00:52:03.581 "And don't believe a thing he says. 00:52:03.623 --> 00:52:05.709 And everything he says is wrong." 00:52:05.750 --> 00:52:07.377 On the other side, 00:52:07.419 --> 00:52:10.755 all of the psychiatrists for the judge 00:52:10.797 --> 00:52:14.092 and for the defense said 00:52:14.134 --> 00:52:16.136 he had multiple personality disorder. 00:52:17.721 --> 00:52:20.807 I was one of them. 00:52:22.976 --> 00:52:25.437 - You had six psychiatrists pointing like points 00:52:25.478 --> 00:52:27.605 of a compass in different opinions. 00:52:27.647 --> 00:52:30.275 I thought, "My goodness." You know, just--it was amazing. 00:52:30.316 --> 00:52:34.571 But people that are that imbued with this theory 00:52:34.612 --> 00:52:36.698 are looking at the theory as opposed 00:52:36.740 --> 00:52:39.117 to what this represents to society. 00:52:39.159 --> 00:52:42.287 I mean, we're looking at an extremely dangerous person. 00:52:45.081 --> 00:52:47.459 I didn't agree with that, uh-- with that whole theory 00:52:47.500 --> 00:52:49.461 of multiple personalities. 00:52:49.502 --> 00:52:51.671 What I saw was not congruent 00:52:51.713 --> 00:52:53.798 with multiple personality at all. 00:52:53.840 --> 00:52:55.967 But that's up to the jury to decide. 00:52:56.009 --> 00:52:57.927 And if he went to trial 00:52:57.969 --> 00:53:00.430 and the jury did not buy the insanity plea, 00:53:00.472 --> 00:53:03.808 he would then be subject to the death penalty. 00:53:03.850 --> 00:53:04.976 And that was fine with me 00:53:05.018 --> 00:53:07.354 'cause my case was ready to go to trial. 00:53:07.395 --> 00:53:09.647 - I was finding it so hard to come out 00:53:09.689 --> 00:53:12.525 where I belong, you know? 00:53:12.567 --> 00:53:14.110 Do you * understand that? 00:53:14.152 --> 00:53:16.905 - It just looked fake to me, 00:53:16.946 --> 00:53:19.282 but, you know, I'm not a psychologist. 00:53:19.324 --> 00:53:21.242 - Count from zero to 27. 00:53:21.284 --> 00:53:25.205 - But he just looked like you would see in a--in a movie. 00:53:25.246 --> 00:53:27.624 I just think he was looking for a way out. 00:53:27.666 --> 00:53:30.877 'Cause we were going for the death penalty. 00:53:30.919 --> 00:53:33.046 He was claiming he wasn't responsible. 00:53:33.088 --> 00:53:35.382 "You can't put me in jail. 00:53:35.423 --> 00:53:37.550 It's not me, it's him." 00:53:37.592 --> 00:53:39.344 - I don't want this * shit here anymore. 00:53:39.386 --> 00:53:41.888 Come on. I don't want no * cameras. 00:53:41.930 --> 00:53:43.139 - Sit down. - Turn that shit off. 00:53:43.181 --> 00:53:45.600 - I just thought, "What a fake." 00:53:45.642 --> 00:53:47.477 - I'm just asking questions. 00:53:47.519 --> 00:53:49.270 - You know, I don't know why I * talk to you. 00:53:49.312 --> 00:53:50.980 You know, this * * over here 00:53:51.022 --> 00:53:52.357 is trying to get rid of me. 00:53:53.566 --> 00:53:56.236 - Bianchi was a scam artist. 00:53:56.277 --> 00:53:57.862 He's a sociopath. 00:53:57.904 --> 00:54:00.365 He made it up. 00:54:02.617 --> 00:54:03.994 Thank you, doctor. 00:54:04.035 --> 00:54:06.997 You have a safe trip now. 00:54:07.038 --> 00:54:12.919 - Kenneth Bianchi will say or do whatever is needed 00:54:12.961 --> 00:54:16.881 that best serves the interest of Kenneth Bianchi. 00:54:16.923 --> 00:54:20.135 I don't believe a word he says at any time. 00:54:20.176 --> 00:54:22.595 He could tell me the sky is blue, 00:54:22.637 --> 00:54:23.847 and I wouldn't believe him. 00:54:23.888 --> 00:54:26.224 - That *' *. 00:54:26.266 --> 00:54:29.060 - Nothing here suggested that it was more 00:54:29.102 --> 00:54:31.938 than one person that did the homicides. 00:54:31.980 --> 00:54:36.109 In Bellingham, right through the entire investigation, 00:54:36.151 --> 00:54:39.529 it was focused on Kenneth Bianchi. 00:54:39.571 --> 00:54:42.240 There was nothing that would even lead you 00:54:42.282 --> 00:54:46.494 to suspect he was a-- a partner with somebody. 00:54:48.371 --> 00:54:50.665 - It was clear that when he was up 00:54:50.707 --> 00:54:54.127 in Bellingham, Washington, he was operating on his own. 00:54:54.169 --> 00:54:57.797 It was very unusual for more than one person 00:54:57.839 --> 00:55:01.426 to be involved in a serial killing. 00:55:01.468 --> 00:55:03.470 But there had always been a suspicion 00:55:03.511 --> 00:55:05.138 that there might have been more than one person 00:55:05.180 --> 00:55:07.932 involved in Los Angeles. 00:55:07.974 --> 00:55:11.102 Ken Bianchi probably knew that. 00:55:11.144 --> 00:55:12.604 - Ken Bianchi would have given up 00:55:12.645 --> 00:55:14.356 his mother to get out of this. 00:55:14.397 --> 00:55:18.610 He would have done anything to get a lifeline for himself. 00:55:18.651 --> 00:55:20.570 He was very cunning. 00:55:20.612 --> 00:55:25.575 - Bianchi's story changed from interview to interview. 00:55:32.288 --> 00:55:33.625 - And all of a sudden in the interviews, 00:55:35.067 --> 00:55:36.068 Kenneth Bianchi... 00:55:43.650 --> 00:55:46.987 - Implicated his cousin, Angelo Buono. 00:55:49.990 --> 00:55:53.660 - Bianchi was claiming that Angelo Buono was 00:55:53.702 --> 00:55:59.750 part and parcel to these homicide cases 00:55:59.792 --> 00:56:01.710 in Los Angeles. 00:56:03.629 --> 00:56:05.714 - What a team we were. 00:56:12.888 --> 00:56:20.020 * *